Curse

Rage_Knight · Jan 29, 2012, 03:05 AM // 03:05

I was a bit hasty in that remark.

When I truly think about it you dont have to have it. But 10 is low.

I run around with at least 13 strength in my most Paladin like builds.
which I believe averages a clean 13% Pen. 1 strength Rank per 1% pen.

15% in most cases where I think it may be vital to killing crowds before they kill me.

Chthon · Jan 29, 2012, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferos

Am I doing something really wrong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferos

10 Swordsmanship, 10 Tactics, 9 Protection Prayers

r8 Butterfly Sword 14-21 Damage +20% Damage Customized

Balanced Stance
Drunken Blow
Sun and Moon Slash
Save Yourselves!
Sever Artery
Gash
Protective Spirit
Mend Ailment

Yes, you are doing something really wrong.

Let's start with the weapon. For best damage, all weapons for martial weapon users should be (1) max damage, (2) customized, and (3) with a "+15% damage while health is over 50%" inherent/inscription mod. Additionally, unless you have a very, very good reason for running another prefix, you should use a vampiric prefix mod. It seems that the only thing you got right was customizing your sword.

Now let's talk about weapon mastery. Weapon mastery boosts your damage in three independent ways:

1. It allows you to meet your weapon req. If you do not meet the req, instead of doing the listed damage range, your weapon will use a different, much lower damage range. It's suspected, but not proven, that the lower range is always the same as a starter weapon. So, for example, a sword will always do 2-3 damage (instead of 15-22) if you don't meet the requirement.
2. It directly increases the damage you do when you hit something. This effect is what you see in the table Marty posted. Since it's good to know, what's really happening here can be more clear from the damage calculation:
damage = (random{weapon_min, weapon_max} * (1+customize_bonus) * (1+inherent_or_inscription_bonus) * 2^((baseline - target's_armor)/40)) + integer_damage_bonuses, where
baseline = 5*weapon_mastery - 3*greater_of{0, weapon_mastery - ((level/2)+2)}. (For spells/wands/staves, baseline = 3*level)
So, you gain 5 baseline (which is the equivalent of the monster having 5 less armor) per point of mastery up to 12 mastery, and then 2 baseline per point of mastery after that. The reason that 100% listed damage happens at 12 mastery is because the devs arbitrarily decided that the damage values listed on weapons (and spells) are normalized to 60 baseline hitting 60 armor.
It increases the integer damage bonuses on all of your attack skills.

Putting this all together, it should be obvious that you should want as much mastery as you can reasonably afford. Without question, you should have at least 14 mastery (12+headpiece+rune) for every build that relies on a martial weapon. There's a majority (but not a consensus) viewpoint that going to 15 or 16 isn't worth the health sacrifice from the bigger runes.

Next, let's look at your attributes and skills.

First, you are missing Strength. Strength adds 1% armor penetration per level to your attack skills. This isn't fantastic, since not every attack is an attack skill, and ~10% armor penetration isn't huge, but it's still a heck of a lot better than nothing. Whenever you don't have a really, really good use for attribute points somewhere else, they should be in Strength. That's why most warrior builds tend to end up with 14 mastery and 13 Strength.

Second, drop protection prayers entirely. You don't have the energy to afford them. Protective Spirit is a great skill... on a caster. (If you have armor problems, then buy better armor; don't bring a skill you can't afford the energy or attribute points for.) Mend Ailment is almost acceptable, except that a caster hero can do the same job better, for the entire party, with Mend Body and Soul or Foul Feast.

Third, probably drop Tactics entirely. The skills available in Tactics just aren't very good, and investing in Tactics takes away from Strength. The only reason to stay with anything from Tactics would be that you need to go get more skills first, in which case you might keep it temporarily.

Next, let's talk about the general shape of good warrior builds. All good warrior builds can be summarized like this:

Save Yourselves!
An increased-attack-speed skill (almost certainly Frenzy, or Flail if your party sucks at damage mitigation).
SKills that do damage (and, more specifically, enough damage per second that it's competitive with other good warrior builds. At a bare minimum, you need to do more DPS than a guy with Warrior's Endurance and Power Attack).
Skills that help you pay for the above -- adrenaline building skills for SY! and adrenaline-based attacks, energy-gaining skills for energy-based attacks.

Additionally, you might sacrifice some damage or frequency of SY! in exchange for a frequent area-of-effect knockdown like Earthshaker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferos

Going to end up using a 100b farming build or something in the end.

That would be stupid. Farming builds are not meant for general play, and they are usually awful at it.

afmart · Jan 29, 2012, 01:10 PM // 13:10

other posts tl:dr; but

Put in some strength and use some of stg skills

my favorite combo for warrior atm is 'warriors endurance' and 'power atack'

with some weapon skills

if you want to use swords maybe a 100b build, also use a vampiric weapon for extra dps

Rage_Knight · Jan 30, 2012, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by afmart

other posts tl:dr; but

Put in some strength and use some of stg skills

my favorite combo for warrior atm is 'warriors endurance' and 'power atack'

with some weapon skills

if you want to use swords maybe a 100b build, also use a vampiric weapon for extra dps

I know what you mean..I abused Warriors endurance with assasin Dagger skills & Sig of Strength.

I favor Rage much more than energy.. and find myself saving it for running skills to keep me on the go..or things to amplify my onslaught even 1/4-1 sec spells,shouts,enchants, chants, even on rare occasions my version of crowd control [Tainted Flesh]+Well of suffering which proves very effective in combat.

Swingline · Jan 30, 2012, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

snip.

You totally missed that every point in a weapon mastery increases the critical strike chance by 1%. Its a small factor but one that cant be ignored.

I would also like to point out that most Warriors run 14 strength and 13 weapon mastery because of Sentinel Insignias. 14 in case of weakness. This will provide 100 armor vs all armor respecting damage, 116 with a shield making you quite durable. If you don't mind the -35 health then go for major weapon mastery runes for 14 str and 14 weapon mastery.

A Warrior should almost always have SY. Not only does it make the party near invincible but it helps force the AI onto the Warrior, helping the Warrior take damage off the party.

A Warrior is not there just to be a damage dealer or a sponge for damage but a controller of the field. Control can be established by mastering the body blocking technique and knock downs.

IMHO you should expect to deal less damage with a shield and a 1h weapon because your sacrificing offense for defense by using a shield+1h over a 2h weapon. However the OP is dealing way too less damage. I suggest 14 str, 13 swordmanship(14 with major rune), a max damage sword(15-22) with 15^50, vamp mod and customized. You want a sword with a requirement between 9-12. Don't get a 13, you need to be 1 point higher in case of weakness.

Chthon · Jan 30, 2012, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

You totally missed that every point in a weapon mastery increases the critical strike chance by 1%. Its a small factor but one that cant be ignored.

Yes, crit chance does increase with mastery. Good call.

However, while close to 1% per rank, that's not accurate. Base crit chance is (0.01*Mastery) + ((1 - (0.01*Mastery)) * 0.5 * 2^(((8*AttackerLvl) + (4*Mastery) + (6 * Lesser_Of{Mastery, ((AttackerLvl + 4)/2)}) - (15* DefenderLvl) - 100) / 40)) (minus a flat penalty if you've got a caster weapon). Additional sources of crits (like critical eye) apply multiplicatively.

Quote:

I would also like to point out that most Warriors run 14 strength and 13 weapon mastery because of Sentinel Insignias. 14 in case of weakness.

I certainly hope most warriors don't do that... Sentinels is hardly worth using at all, much less messing up your attribute spread for to guard against the rare occasions you'll be stuck with weakness.

Quote:

[Sentinels] will provide 100 armor vs all armor respecting damage

No it doesn't. Not all armor-respecting damage is physical or elemental.

Quote:

A Warrior should almost always have SY.

Yes.

Quote:

A Warrior is not there just to be a damage dealer or a sponge for damage but a controller of the field. Control can be established by mastering the body blocking technique and knock downs.

Yes.

Swingline · Jan 30, 2012, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I certainly hope most warriors don't do that... Sentinels is hardly worth using at all, much less messing up your attribute spread for to guard against the rare occasions you'll be stuck with weakness.

The 14 str isnt just to guard against weakness with sentinals. There are many notable attack skills in the strength line that are better than some in axe or sword mastery. The point is to have increased survivability without having to dedicate skills for it, leaving more room for Str attack skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

No it doesn't. Not all armor-respecting damage is physical or elemental.

Physical and Elemental are the most threatening. Dark, Holy and Chaos only come from wands and the rare occasions of spells modifying weapons to them.

spun ducky · Jan 30, 2012, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Wail of Doom on Shiroken Necromancer says hi as at least some points you would be doing crap damage.

Swingline · Jan 30, 2012, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by spun ducky

Wail of Doom on Shiroken Necromancer says hi as at least some points you would be doing crap damage.

Wail of Doom only lasts 4-5 seconds with high enough soul reaping. I also think the OP would notice the damage fluctuations when Wail of Doom applies then wears off and look for the source of the fluctuation.

Given his 14-21 damage sword and 10 in swordsmanship the damage would get pretty low on high armor level targets. Even lower with Weakness.

Beomagi · Mar 11, 2012, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inferos

My level 20 Warrior is just did regular Sunjiang District as Swordsmanship/Tactics and was auto attacking for 2-3 damage. He has 10 Swordsmanship, and a max damage sword with reqs met. Sun and Moon Slash was hitting for 9 damage each swing.

Are Warriors with shields damage really this low? Or am I doing something really wrong?

No this is normal given how you're specced.

Consider damage as falling into 2 categories.

Armor ignoring damage - like the +damage from skills, + damage from conjure of strength of honor. Vampiric mods, order from necros, barbs, mark of pain etc.

Armor mitigated damage - like the raw damage of a weapon, most elemental damage etc.

You need to start thinking about game mechanics. If you're fighting a level 24 warrior - assuming 100 armor, he's already taking half damage from raw hits.

One example - Assassins damage is heavily weighted towards bonus damage from skills - so the assassin is less affected by armor of high level enemies that a warrior relying on raw hits (death blossom at rank 12 is 80 armor ignoring damage for example and recycles FAST). If using warrior's endurance, an assassin chain can fit a warrior very well.

So - consider ways to add armor ignoring damage. A conjure spell from elementalist line. You're already Monk - strength of honor can work. If i'm pugging or don't have a smite hero, i'll take it myself. even at lower levels, you're looking at 15+ extra damage on a spell that quick to recharge if it's stripped.

Ebon vanguard standard of honor - great skill for rapid hitters. Any allies attacking from within the ward gets a damage bonus per damage packet.

Heros should have skills that synergize with you. You're meele - do any of your hero's have skills to help you damage? Prot spirit should be on the hero - it would last longer since a prot hero will have a bigger investment. Consider skills like barbs, mark of pain, order of pain/blood, splinter weapon, nightmare weapon.

Make sure if you're in areas where enemies are using defensive enchantments - flashing blades, armor etc that your heros/henchmen are also packing enchantment removal.

Edit: looking at your skills of choice you have no energy management.
If balanced stance is stripped, you have no spammable damage attack.

You apply random conditions but you've got deep wound - the more important one covered. I'd say go with power attack, which wont need a stance to keep you standing. It also charges faster.